Home > Church of Scientology, Getting something done > Another OT VIII votes with her feet

Another OT VIII votes with her feet

Couldn’t we just handle the problems internally? Shouldn’t we use the ethics and justice systems in the church to sort out the troubles we see? Writing KRs is the answer.


There are no shortage of KRs and attempts to handle the abuses in the Church of Scientology. After having tried to handle it from the inside several times too many, it dawns on most Scientologists that the problems go all the way to the top. All the way.

Sherry Katz is the latest OT VIII to go public with her views on the church management. She has a great production and training record – her walking out the door leaves a clear message to other OTs: It’s time to wake up and get moving.

Read more on Marty’s blog.

  1. RJ
    2009-10-13 at 20:09

    Well obviously the Church of Miscavigology has basically hit the self destruct button by failing to acknowledge these reports and correct the scene internally. Instead they attempt to “correct” the individuals who write them and as you can see this has worked out well. Not!

  2. sherrymk
    2009-10-13 at 20:29

    RJ :
    Well obviously the Church of Miscavigology has basically hit the self destruct button by failing to acknowledge these reports and correct the scene internally. Instead they attempt to “correct” the individuals who write them and as you can see this has worked out well. Not!

    Exactly. In fact, I did get an acknowledgement supposedly from ED INT on the huge report I sent up lines. The ack simply said that the report was received and that he understood that I was going to the ship soon(which I had mentioned in my cover letter to him) and he was sure I would sort it out there. “I would sort it out”..right. It disgusted me. And it was neither signed by ED INT nor even stamped with his signature. Instead, “ED INT” was typed at the bottom.

    • RJ
      2009-10-13 at 22:57

      Yeah I stopped using the SO #1 report line after my letters were used as “evidence” of “Black PR”. Funny thing was, the reason I wrote him was because my Staff Member Reports were also being used as “evidence” of “Black PR”!

      That’s when I realized that not only was ‘Alice in Wonderland’ being used as part of TR 1 but it had been accepted as firm policy by the Board of Directors 🙂

  3. Someone
    2009-10-13 at 20:31

    at a rate of one OTVIII per day, in less than one year all wil be handled. maybe this is the clearing LRH talked about (o:« maybe maybe maybe…

    • 2009-10-13 at 20:40

      There are ~1000 OT VIIIs. But my guesstimate is that if we get 200 OT VIIs/VIIIs to vote wth their feet, we’ll have turned the tide and gotten DM off his power trip.

      • Someone
        2009-10-13 at 20:46

        that’s what i meant, though i wasn’t clear. ‘guesstimate’ is a great word!

      • Someone
        2009-10-13 at 20:53

        talking about power trips, DM reminds me of Hitler: he also believed he was doing the best for mankind. ‘hell is full of good intentions’, stated an old italian saying.

  4. jason beghe
    2009-10-13 at 21:55

    Is that the sound of a dam breaking…?

  5. StarsAwait
    2009-10-14 at 00:16

    no that’s DM’s dial wide rock slam

  6. ExKane
    2009-10-14 at 00:29

    Is the rate of high OTs leaving picking up or is it just that we now have a means of reading about it? I hope the rate really is picking up. Email, phone, fax, etc. those you know to spread the news.

  7. GM
    2009-10-14 at 00:49

    First of all Geir, thank you for this topic! There’s no shortage of negatives to be found about the C of S online and it unfortunately seems that the subject too often gets painted by the same brush as the errant management of it. At least among those who don’t recognize there IS a distinction!
    My wins are so many over the years. This is a good reminder… I recall one wonderful, simple win when I was on the Briefing Course — I was at lunch watching all the various people walking by, when I totally got how completely unique each one was. And that this was true all over the world (the universe!) This just made my understanding and appreciation of beings so much greater. People are by and large really wonderful. (As you can imagine I really like LRHs essay “What is Greatness”!)

    • Someone
      2009-10-14 at 13:40

      Sorry to ask as I totally don’t mean to invalidate your win – it’s wonderful! – but why would the merit of that win belong to Scn?

  8. GM
    2009-10-14 at 00:52

    Re #8…. meant for the “wins” catagory, not “…OT VIII votes with her feet.”

  9. 2009-10-14 at 06:44

    It is good to see others get the “wake up call.”

    In 1983, not too long after D.Miscavidge took over over 600 people left over a period of a year, mostly trained people with good case levels. Since that time many have passed on, but there are a few of us still around and still auditing.

    Those who practice outside the COS (we call it the freezone) are preparing to be a safety net for those still “in” who are concerned about “losing their bridge.”

    • Someone
      2009-10-14 at 14:13

      I love the Rainforest Site. Thank’s for sharing it.

  10. Tomas
    2009-10-14 at 13:00

    Another OT VIII votes with her feet…
    This post is mostly addresst to those who are in awe of OTs for the wrong reason. Most of the OT VII – OTVIII are scientologist for more than 15 years in the Cof S. That means that these people have given power to upper management for many years while at the same time they where auditing on OT- levels.
    Frankly it has been obvious( to me anyway and thousand others ) that upper management has been corrupted big time since early 80`s.

    From this I conclude that OTs are not necessary wise, responsible or people with high integrity. These theta qualities is not the EP of the OT-levels, obviously. These qualities rise as you audit and train but it can be from a very low point.
    The reason these OTs get this attention is IMO that these persons represents the finest product the church can deliver, they are opinionleaders for the church followers. They have a diploma from the church itself.

    Here is a paraphrase from the writer P. Coelho:
    There are three kinds of OTs. The first kind of OTs do all the courses and training. The Buy auditing and follow all the rules. But they dont get the point – they dont get the wins.
    The second kind of OTs do all the courses and training. The Buy auditing and follow all the rules. They do get the point – they have loads of spiritual wins.
    The third kind of OTs have never heard of this subject called Scientology but they have somehow got the point – they have loads of spiritual wins.
    I am of course very glad for all these OTs who now speak out and thereby helping us.

    • 2009-10-14 at 13:10

      I think you are missing a point – a point that has been missed also by many over at ESMB: The post is important not only to those in “awe of the OTs” but because it is effectively corroding DMs power base. OTs are opinion leaders of the vast majority of current Scientologists. They are also the ones giving the most money to the church. OTs leaving is the most effective corrosion – much more than the squeaking forums.

      • Thalkirst
        2009-10-14 at 14:13

        Geir, there is one thing – these squeaking “natter board” were already publishing a lot of the abuses that were going on (example: blownforgood’s posts etc.) and bringing media and government attention to the Church, while you and all the OT VIIIs who have left the Church recently were busy actively supporting DM and flowing power and money to him.

        As much as agree with your standpoint on ACTIONS needed, boards like OCMB, ESMB and even WWP deserve a little more respect for providing a lot of valuable information for those who are seeking the truth about Scientology and the Church.

        • 2009-10-14 at 14:57

          It’s not the intention of the boards and their history that I would point out to be below par (because both are clearly well above par), it is what the boards have become in the last two years. Quite frankly, the most extreme of the haters on those boards actually prolong many CoS exits – and that is the opposite to action.

          • RJ
            2009-10-14 at 20:30

            Geir I’d say ARS, ESMB and Clam Bake etc. were an evolutionary step for many of us who loved the tech but hated what the organization had become under Miscavige.

            You had to sort out a lot of chaff from the wheat.

            Now with you, Marty, Rebel and Scientology-cult we don’t have to brave the snake pit in our quest for information.

          • Thalkirst
            2009-10-14 at 21:41

            I don’t like ignorant haters either, but there are people with legitimate ARCXs with the Church and Scientology as a philosophy itself – people who virtually lost their relatives due to disconnection or went into a debt spiral due to crush regging. They are pretty charged on the subject, and frankly, I can understand their anger. Not all such criticism should be dismissed. There is a lot to correct in Scientology, both as an organization and as a philosophical system before it measures up to the standards of general decency, integrity and honesty.

    • Someone
      2009-10-14 at 14:24

      Wow 🙂 That is so true and beautiful. Paulo Coelho wrote a few great books, for my personal taste. I couldn’t read anything else from him, after those 3 or 4 that I read and loved.

      There is a 4th kind of OT’s, though. The ones that got to know about Scn and taste it, had wins before it, had wins in it for who they are and not because of Scn, and got out with their ‘OTisness’ even more defined (by contrast!), and continue having wins everyday, after it. Is there bigger win than to be right here and right now, alive, aware of being(s), observing and communicating and being true to one’s Self?

      • Steve
        2009-10-14 at 20:15

        I would respectfully suggest that after you achieve that ah-ha moment for yourself, that you eventually will begin to look around and realize that there are a lot of people, beings, that are around you and that they are in considerable distress.
        As ones heart will go out to them, you realize that you and I have a responsibility to them as well.
        As one goes up the OT levels and the material it covers, this becomes more and more real, the kind of selfless love for others will develop. As an OT you realize that for the moment, there salvation rests on your shoulders. In the process, you also realize that there is a small, but debilitating evil that exits. This is described in Scientology literature; however, it is also recognized outside of Scientology. Check out this interview with an author of a book that tries to describe evil and its effects on society from a non -Scientology viewpoint. See if you recognize anything.
        No doubt, some points will be debated, however the big picture is compelling.
        So in my view, recognizing others, and their needs, as well as the evil that exits, and effectively dealing with it, well, that would be the next level of OT from my view point.

        • ExKane
          2009-10-15 at 09:22

          I believe LRH was one such sociopath. Why? Cults almost invariably are led by sociopaths. They are extremely charming and have an almost hypnotic manner of speaking. They can easily ‘bring you over to their side’ and are obsessed with being worshipped. LRH was certainly very charming.
          These cults always (yes, always) claim to know the one true path to salvation/eternity which has been granted by the supposed insights and beneficence of the cult leader. And their members are always _sure_ that their particular path is the only right one. Yet, the paths are always vastly different…
          Moreover, Hubbard’s readiness to use intimidation and aggression (see Fair Game) is suggestive of sociopathy.
          About 1/25 to 1/50 men are sociopaths to some degree. The vast majority do not act out violently (unlike DM). Most charm the heck out of people to make their way up to positions of great power and control (be it money or control over followers). I don’t think LRH – a man who threw people overboard off the Apollo to ‘set them straight’ – was any different.

          • 2009-10-15 at 13:04

            Charm does not make a person a sociopath.
            And, your logic is based on some questionable preconditions like Scientology always having been a cult and a certain take on what LRH meant by the Fair Game policy. I would advice a better foundation for criticism before launcing 😉

            • ExKane
              2009-10-16 at 07:11

              Charm does not make one a sociopath. But charm, founding a teaching that claims to hold the only key to real freedom, harboring a group in which you are practically idolized or seen as the ‘giver of secret truths’, a disrespect for the rights of others (“May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed” speaks volumes), engagement in activities that disrupt the law (Operation Snow White) – in my opinion these things are very much held in common with other sociopathic cult leaders. Said an ex-Scientologist onboard the Apollo: “Onboard the ship he’s a kind of Jesus Christ cum Buddha all rolled into one, I mean, his busts and photographs are everywhere.” LRH’s charm in full flare can be seen at 12:45 in “The shrinking world of L. Ron Hubbard” on YouTube.
              But what really seals the deal for me is the conviction in the followers of these people that they have been in a sense ‘saved’ – granted the one true road to freedom. Heaven’s Gate cult survivor, two years ago: “I want you all to know that I was a member of Heaven’s Gate from 1994-1997. I know everything worth knowing about them and I can say with absolute, undeniable certainty, that Heaven’s Gate was indeed “The Second Coming of Jesus.” Absolute, undeniable certainty… That was all it took to get the followers to accept suicide because they believed their souls would be able to hitch a ride on a nearby alien spaceship to another plane of existence.

              • 2009-10-16 at 22:57

                I have a different take on the Fair Game policy. I believe most have misunderstood that text.

          • RJ
            2009-10-17 at 00:58

            All I can say is your entitled to your own opinion like certain portions of the anatomy I won’t mention here every ones got one.

            My opinion is that most of what you say is based on presumption and conjecture with no actual proof.

            By the way Ron never threw anyone overboard. That was the Class VIIIs themselves who decided it was fit punishment for anyone who screwed up.

            As you can see for yourself there is no such policy that condones such activity.

            Another myth exploded.

            Also if you actually read the HCOPL Fair Game Law you will find Ron does not condone illegal actions against those declared Suppressive.

            The policy meant those who were labeled Fair Game had no protection from HCO! And that they could be lied, tricked etc without HCO taking action!

            Obviously you missed the point.

            • 2009-10-17 at 06:26

              …and that is one of the most misunderstood points of all in critical circles.

  11. Robert
    2009-10-14 at 17:46

    I agree. It amazes me how people still seek the negative in what is truly good news. And it is if you want DMs credibility destroyed, the abuses stopped, and many people getting their lives and minds back. It’s like watching the Berlin Wall come down but people complaining because a guy is using a pick ax instead of a sledgehammer to break up the wall or has on the wrong colored pants. There was some criticism I saw of this yesterday where the guy expected a full denouncement of Hubbard along with leaving or it wouldn’t meet his standard. I guess he thought se was being too “reasonable”.

    • RJ
      2009-10-18 at 05:34

      Yeah well since “deprogrammers” haven’t had the same reign of terror they were once allowed in the past, that is kidnapping individuals and forcibly restraining them under duress to renounce their religious beliefs they attempt to achieve the same result on the internet through other persuasive tactics, such as “shaming” them for still being Scientologists or whatever the “cult” of the week happens to be according to the Mockingbird News “Service”.

      Personally, I view them as annoying busy bodies who are intolerant of another’s religious beliefs or convictions.

  12. Maria
    2009-10-14 at 18:56

    Since the early 1980s, the Church has offered services and training on the basis that you bought your services, did them and then went home. Just as you don’t know the internal workings of your local department store, the public typically didn’t know about the internal workings of the C of S. Unless they landed up on the wrong side of some situation, a public person usually only dealt with service oriented staff who delivered the auditing and training. In the last several years, staff started to try to enforce things on the public, got out of hand with non-exchange donations demands, and clearly violated key LRH principles. Keep in mind, most OTs are not staff members, and may never have been.

    Sherry, thank you for all your work and efforts to correct things. Much appreciated.

    As far as not paying attention to various anti sites, I simply lack interest in beating people, making them wrong or standing in judgment. I very much appreciate Geir’s even-handed approach because it seems very responsible to me, and blessedly free of blind destruction and wholesale invalidation.

  13. sherrymk
    2009-10-14 at 22:03

    Maria :

    Sherry, thank you for all your work and efforts to correct things. Much appreciated.
    As far as not paying attention to various anti sites, I simply lack interest in beating people, making them wrong or standing in judgment. I very much appreciate Geir’s even-handed approach because it seems very responsible to me, and blessedly free of blind destruction and wholesale invalidation.

    You are very welcome and I agree with you most heartily on your statement above about Geir’s blog. I breath a sigh of relief every time I visit here.

  14. Nom de Plume
    2009-10-18 at 18:24

    ExKane :
    …LRH – a man who threw people overboard off the Apollo to ’set them straight’ – was any different.

    Ha ha. I always thought it was a wonderfully high-toned, prankish and tension-reducing way to get someone’s head out of his arse in a hurry. But anyway, like RJ said, it was the cadre of Class 8’s who administered those “spankings” to each other.

    ExKane :
    Said an ex-Scientologist onboard the Apollo…

    Yes, well…isn’t there always gonna be boo-hoo drop-outs in any elite group?

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