Home > Church of Scientology, My timeline > When I met David Miscavige

When I met David Miscavige

It was a turning point. It was the start of the end for me in the Church of Scientology. Within a few minutes of him shouting “Where’s the guy from Oslo?“, I would see the leader of my church break a whole pile of policies. Fortunately I did not fall into the trap of justifying all that I saw. I would not try to make the obvious outpoints into something normal or good. With steel enforced personal integrity from doing OT VIII, I was not excusing any observations.

Only two weeks after I attested to the highest OT level yet released, I was back aboard the Freewinds attending the annual Maiden Voyage events. Last time I attended was back in 2001. It was exciting to meet all the international executives back then. I talked to Guillaume Lesevre, Marc Yager, Mike Rinder, Janet Light and Ray Mithoff. I remember very well the excellent interview I had with the Senior C/S International. Ray was a very pleasant person. But in 2006 they were all gone. This time it was a pure Miscavige show.

It was on the night of the photo shoots where my church would show cracks in its foundation. I was standing outside the Heritage restaurant with two fellow OT VIII’s from Sweden. All the OT VIII’s were appointed OT Ambassadors and were to be photographed together with Miscavige, country by country. There were only two OT Ambassadors from Sweden and only me from the land of Santa. The swedes tried to include me in a virtual group of “Scandinavians”, but I naturally declined. The union between Sweden and Norway had been broken 101 years ago. Nope, I was representing my own country. It would be DM and me in the photo.

The swedes were first and just as they were to enter the doors to the restaurant, they said they would tell the Chairman of the Board that I should be the next Executive Director of the CoS Oslo, the Oslo Org. They had taken responsibility for Stockholm as the executives of that Org. Now they figured it was my turn to boom Olso Org. I laughed and told them to knock it off.

My turn to enter the restaurant. I couldn’t have been standing there for more than a few minutes before I could hear his voice loud and clear: “Where’s the guy from Oslo?” I responded “Here, sir“, and with no delay he was about to shake my hand when he said “So you’re the new ED of Oslo Org. Congratulations!“. I was puzzled and said “No sir, that is not my game.“. He pushed on “But what could be a better game?“. I tried to explain. He pushed on. He wanted me to accept the position right there and then. Seeing he wouldn’t get a product he simply turned around and walked out of the room. I was confused and thought “What was that?“. I had been running a recruitment company for ten years in the 1990’s. I had seen many recruitment cycles over the years. Now this must have been the worst ever seen.

During just a few minutes, the Chairman of the Board of the Religious Technology Center, a post supposedly not involved in any management of the Church of Scientology had tried to;

  1. Dismiss the current ED of Oslo Org without notice – a guy he knew nothing about (during the short conversation he told me he never heard anything from Oslo and he knew nothing about what was happening there).
  2. Put a guy he had never before seen on post as the new ED merely because of another person’s hint at how good it would be to recruit me.
  3. Bypass something like 15 people in the command line from him to the ED of Oslo Org.

I remember thinking “This must violate a whole volume of policies from L. Ron Hubbard.” I was befuddled by this. It really made no sense that the leader of my church would be this erratic. He didn’t strike me as a competent manager. It was just weired.

When he got back 5 minutes after breaking off the conversation, he was looking sharply at me and said “I’m keeping an eye on you – you’re the next ED of Oslo Org!“. “Note that!” he demanded of one of his junior who in turn replied “I’m tracking you, sir!” as she wrote something in a notebook.

I got back to Oslo and several staff members were very excited to hear from their senior that COB had ordered me to take the ED post. They told me they expected me to follow through on his order. I was nowhere near the thought of joining staff. I had just had my stable data shaken, and I was about to find out what the rest of the ice berg looked like.

The real two year research with 1,5 hours of Internet reading and forum lurking as daily average didn’t start until the summer next year. It got priority when the Director of Special Affairs of Oslo Org asked if I could check something for him on the Internet. He told me that some journalist was about to write some fiction about David Miscavige beating his staff. It turned out it was not so fictitious after all. I checked and cross checked, fact checked and analyzed. When Tommy Davis seriously botched his rebuttal of the SP Times articles, I knew it was over for me as a member. I spent a couple of weeks to write down my conclusions. The rest is on this blog.

David Miscavige: You cannot escape honest observations.

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  1. NoWay
    2009-08-22 at 02:33

    It’s called “missed withhold”, Geir. You were asked to take on more responsibility and you basically said “fuck you”. Anyone would have turned his back on you. Stop motivating, it’s really a pity to see.

    • 2009-08-22 at 07:15

      This warrants only a 🙂

    • Rebel Too
      2009-08-22 at 19:27

      This is exactly the self serving crap that makes any kind of display of self determinism impossible…and deadly…for an OT.

    • Jim Logan
      2009-08-23 at 14:51

      No way, No Way, if it is as you say, a trained Scientologist would have pulled the withhold and gotten who missed it. Turning his back on it would not be effective unless of course he likes it that way. Or maybe he’s just not trained. You have missed the outpoint I fear.

    • Jack
      2009-09-01 at 23:18

      Nice try at introverting an OT VIII

    • Brett
      2010-10-07 at 07:55

      NO Way, What Geir did was the correct action. He was asked to take on more responsibility and he did by saying “fuck you” and starting this blog … perhaps you can learn something from this.

      Try the “Look, don’t listen” drill, it may help you.

    • annonymous
      2013-10-16 at 03:20

      “NoWay” it’s time to wake up. Miscavige has you…

      There is only one end if you follow him, and that is death.

  2. Fellow VIII
    2009-08-22 at 03:40

    Thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate your courage and am inspired by your willingness to be there and communicate with personal integrity and full Code of Honor. Thank you.
    Regarding David Miscavige, there is definitely no substitute for having the man in his flesh to see his “copper”. I realized it was DM who was behind the abuse and suppression of staff that looked emaciated and worn, with their hands torn from work renovating the ship for many months, as soon as I set foot on the Freewinds during MV 2008. DM set a ridiculous target to “reno” a ship in time for MV, no matter what. “Image” and BS – that is what I came to see as DM’s “trademark”. It was a surreal scene- the “beautiful” ship (which actually had tons of design faults and mechanical issues due to overt products of a ridiculously rushed reno cycle) against exhausted and bewildered staff. I was appalled (and this is before I even knew about the blue asbestos!!). I despise abusive “bosses”, I despise mistreatment of people – these SO members are my friends. That was the beginning of the end for me. And then in the “confidential briefing” I realized it was HIS, DM, COB’s, orders that led to SO members to not getting sleep until they met their “Basics sales” quotas, his insane orders that everyone sell and do Basics while the orgs collapsed due to lack of income; that staff went with little sleep and begged parishioners to buy so “they could get some sleep”; that all orgs be fund raising and parishioners cannibalize each other instead of disseminate Scientology to the world, to improve conditions; ridiculous real-estate purchases and ridiculously expensive interior designs which were textbook “PTS to the middle class” examples… that is when I got it was HIM, he is the SP. And nobody else around me seemed to see what I saw… it was a crucial moment for me. Once you are VIII your eyes are WIDE open and it takes some effort to close them again. I am not closing my eyes; I am not going to go against years of going up The Bridge to invalidate what I observe. Since then, many KRs and reports later, I see it is a useless endeavor to try to KSW when the rot is at the top. There is a massive cancer that has eaten my Church and it is called “out tech” and “Black Dianetics and Black Scientology”. It is now in the overt shape of an abusive IAS that is harassing parishioners and diverting funds from orgs; taking staff from their posts and making them all IAS regges while “The reason for Orgs”, “Use of Orgs” and “KSW 1” policy letters are being completely violated. What is there now as “The Church of Scientology” is the antithesis of Scientology by LRH, the opposite of what I signed up for. Bait and switch, to the max! LRH would be roaring like a lion if he was around to see this!

  3. Rebel Too
    2009-08-22 at 06:30

    This is just too interesting. I was on that very MV also… 2006 and at the same time: waiting to be photographed with DM. Something occurred that made my skin crawl. That’s when I recognized that David Miscavage, the leader of my church, had a cruel, power hungry streak .

    The members of our orgs OT Committee were hurdled into the Heritage for their photo shoot.(you first wait outside in line and get “drilled” by RTC/INT people on how to act as if you’re going before the Pope) Our OTC Chairman and his wife, both HUGE contributors(MILLIONS of personal money for the Ideal Org), responsible for securing our Ideal Org building, deep deep in as top IAS donors, Superpower donors and every other Scientology cause donor, lead the way in. I’d also seen them talking with DM personally on numerous occasions on that MV, so, when we entered, the couple naturally took their place on one side of DM for the shoot. We all started lining up in two rows when I, all of a sudden, caught a piercing look from DM to one of his assistants. It made me jump as, although it had been just a second, DM’s eyes had gone stone cold. Immediately, with no words spoken, the assitant moved the couple from their position next to DM and put them at the very end off to one side and moved two pretty, youngish looking women and placed these women on either side of DM for the shot. I looked over at the couple who were doing their best to suppress their humiliation but I saw it on their faces. It was so completely obvious that it was a deliberate move on DM’s part to “show them their place” that I could not stop recalling that MV without thinking about DM’s expression and it sending a chill down my spine.

  4. Yannick
    2009-08-22 at 10:17

    @ NoWay:

    I’m sorry, but that just makes no sense whatsoever. I think it would be OK if DM has just offered that position to Geir, but what he did was force it on him and just walk out when that didn’t work. (great communication skills by the way, maybe DM should consider going into an org and doing the Communication Course!) There is such a thing as free will, and if Geir felt that his place was somewhere else, then that’s perfectly ok.

  5. 2009-08-22 at 13:18

    Maybe not really pertinent, but Scientology is not like any other business.

    If you leave a company there is usually a gathering with cake and cheers and best wishes on your new job from your colleagues. The company informs the employees of your leave and publicly thanks you for the well done job you did in the company. Good manners.

    If you leave church staff you are insulted, criticized for the job done, blackmailed and extorted with a freeloader bill, vilified, and if you dare to communicate your leaving to others you are declared a suppressive scumbag and your family and friendships are destroyed with disconnection.

    There is some good Tech to save in Scientology, and a lot of nonsense to bury.

  6. Rebel Too
    2009-08-22 at 19:23

    Fellow VIII :Thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate your courage and am inspired by your willingness to be there and communicate with personal integrity and full Code of Honor. Thank you.Regarding David Miscavige, there is definitely no substitute for having the man in his flesh to see his “copper”. I realized it was DM who was behind the abuse and suppression of staff that looked emaciated and worn, with their hands torn from work renovating the ship for many months, as soon as I set foot on the Freewinds during MV 2008. DM set a ridiculous target to “reno” a ship in time for MV, no matter what. “Image” and BS – that is what I came to see as DM’s “trademark”. It was a surreal scene- the “beautiful” ship (which actually had tons of design faults and mechanical issues due to overt products of a ridiculously rushed reno cycle) against exhausted and bewildered staff. I was appalled (and this is before I even knew about the blue asbestos!!). I despise abusive “bosses”, I despise mistreatment of people – these SO members are my friends. That was the beginning of the end for me. And then in the “confidential briefing” I realized it was HIS, DM, COB’s, orders that led to SO members to not getting sleep until they met their “Basics sales” quotas, his insane orders that everyone sell and do Basics while the orgs collapsed due to lack of income; that staff went with little sleep and begged parishioners to buy so “they could get some sleep”; that all orgs be fund raising and parishioners cannibalize each other instead of disseminate Scientology to the world, to improve conditions; ridiculous real-estate purchases and ridiculously expensive interior designs which were textbook “PTS to the middle class” examples… that is when I got it was HIM, he is the SP. And nobody else around me seemed to see what I saw… it was a crucial moment for me. Once you are VIII your eyes are WIDE open and it takes some effort to close them again. I am not closing my eyes; I am not going to go against years of going up The Bridge to invalidate what I observe. Since then, many KRs and reports later, I see it is a useless endeavor to try to KSW when the rot is at the top. There is a massive cancer that has eaten my Church and it is called “out tech” and “Black Dianetics and Black Scientology”. It is now in the overt shape of an abusive IAS that is harassing parishioners and diverting funds from orgs; taking staff from their posts and making them all IAS regges while “The reason for Orgs”, “Use of Orgs” and “KSW 1” policy letters are being completely violated. What is there now as “The Church of Scientology” is the antithesis of Scientology by LRH, the opposite of what I signed up for. Bait and switch, to the max! LRH would be roaring like a lion if he was around to see this!

    Thank you so much for this. It makes my heart break for the Freewinds staff and the others that were brought on as slave labor. The staff on the ship are just simply the best and I love every one of them…especially the Tech personnel. David Miscavage is his own worst enemy. All you have to do is LOOK and acknowledge that you are seeing what you are really seeing and the game is over…welcome aboard Fellow OTVlll.

  7. jessicaheartsart
    2009-08-23 at 01:55

    the more I read about DM, the creepier he seems. LRH didn’t put him in charge and he certainly isn’t the “source” of anything. Just my opinion, from the outside looking in.

  8. 2009-08-23 at 07:25

    Yet another demonstration that, whatever David Miscaviage is, he is NOT a scientologist.

  9. Class VIII OT VII
    2009-08-23 at 14:29

    Geir, Fellow VIII and Rebel Too:

    Glad you you’re here and speaking out. Glad you didn’t close your eyes. I’m a Class VIII OT VII and there are many of us who see the same things and who have left, have gone to ground (yet still practice and disseminate the tech) or who are actively working on exposing the issues so that others will see as well.

    Fellow VIII, what you say is EXACTLY what is occurring and is EXACTLY the current scene, so very far from any concept of an ideal scene! I have/had many friends in the SO as well, and on Class V org staff. To see them cowed, robotic, automatons due to force or pressure or lack of sleep or vilification and threats of declare, makes me wince.

    Mostly Lurke, you are correct. Rather than a “Thank you for all your hard work and help, let us know if we can be of assistance in your new future”, EVEN IF LEAVING TOTALLY, you get exactly what you stated: vilificaiton, condemnation, threats, despisement.

    Geir, I have meant to write you privately, since reading your Doubt announcement. But in case I don’t get to it, thanks. Know there are others out here who can and do seperate the tech and philosophy from DM’s slimy hands and aberrated concept of the Church.

    Best to all,
    C.

  10. Dr. No
    2009-08-23 at 16:12

    There is a certain evilness that lurks within Davy. Some see it, some don’t. But as time goes on more and more people will find out about him and it will be his undoing.

  11. Nicki
    2009-08-23 at 17:20

    I’ve met him briefly, never had an experience,but did notice the “icey” appearance. I am amazed at how people in the church are “herded” here and there to do this and that. Drop everything and study the next “new” book, or release. It’s exhausting…It used to be fun!
    We’re supposed to “think for ourselves”, but if you actually do…there’s trouble afoot!

  12. 2009-08-23 at 17:45

    Noway seems to be using tech to vilify tech. That is black Scientology. The Scientology I knew was supposed to free people by encouraging them to be more self-determined. When I see tech being “applied” to invalidate and suppress others I see a big outpoint that 180 degrees opposite to the pure Scientology I know.

  13. rich
    2009-08-23 at 22:05

    I get the feeling Noway is just being sarcastic.

  14. 2009-08-23 at 22:11

    Geir,

    In a thread about a Sea Org member in East Grinstead going nuts on camera, Anons over at Why We Protest were wondering what briefings members of the CoS were getting on Anons.

    For well over a year we’ve been operating under the impression they have many comical conspiracy theories about us, ranging from Big Pharma to Fourth (or Fifth) Invader Forces.

    WOuld we be able to bother you for your insight on the matter? Has the CoS been spreading anything remotely relating to reality about Anonymous to staff and public?

    • 2009-08-24 at 05:22

      I have heard very little actual info on Anonymous from within the Church. I do believe others have gotten some propaganda, but I’ve been left out. I have followed closely the actions and impact of Anonymous during my two years of research.

  15. As-is
    2009-08-24 at 02:48

    @ Geir – so glad you got out and now can use your abilities and knowledge fully without suppression from DM. 🙂

    @ NoWay – According to the subject of scientology, one is supposed to become more self-determined and even pan-determined as one gets more processing and goes up the bridge. So you expect an OT8 to allow himself to be told to change his life in a big way? Is that what you think the EP is of OT8, “be other-determined”? Whoever you are, I really hope you one day disentangle yourself from DM.

  16. 2009-08-24 at 03:42

    Thanks for having finally realized what was behind the glossy front.
    Would you like now to take the next steps, that is, realizing how much Hubbard is implicated into the behaviour of DM and of the whole system?
    Himself has not directly beaten his staffs, but he was getting them thrown into the sea; he was jailing them in anchor’s place, for days along; he depriving them of any correct food, sleep, pay and family joys; he was behind the most insane system of “justice” ever seen; he was full of critics toward his friends and staffs and family , which according to his own “tch”, illustrates how much WHs he had against them.

  17. RJ
    2009-08-24 at 05:12

    Thanks Geir for posting this.

    I enjoyed reading your doubt formula as well.

    I’d just like to welcome you to the independent field, if no body has done so.

    Keep writing ’cause the stuff that your putting out is great 🙂

    Best

    R

  18. Ex Vet
    2009-08-24 at 06:07

    @ No Way

    Well, I’ve seen DM beat no less than 4 staff when I was at Int. I observed that with my own eyes. It wasn’t hearsay. And now I’ve written it down. According to you that means I have missed withholds. Stretching your logic further, if my “missed withholds” were pulled, those specific incidents where I observed DM to beat those four staff would disappear from the timetrack and those incidents would have never happened.

    I don’t know what universe you think you’re in, but I suggest you open your eyes and check in to Hotel Reality.

  19. Ragnvald
    2009-08-24 at 12:48

    Geir,

    Fantastic! These words by Allen Ginsberg speak better of this than I do:

    http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/Allen-Ginsberg/3679

    Ragnvald

  20. Anonymous
    2009-08-24 at 14:32

    Internet lurking? We are led to believe scientologists (in the church) are to refrain from using the internets due to its potential “bad influence”.
    Comments on this?

    • 2009-08-24 at 16:10

      Sure. My doubt write-up is going from Inbox to Inbox inciting curiosity and action. Word of mouth is likewise generating an urge to peek at truth. The truth is out there, albeit among piles of garbage. But more and more Scientologists are defying the strong advices on not to look and not to confront 🙂

      • Patty Pieniadz
        2009-08-25 at 16:12

        This is wonderful news.

        Thanks for your courage and confront of evil.

        P

  21. MS
    2009-08-24 at 16:26

    I want to ask you all a question, especially Geir. Did you ever write these outpoints up to someone like IJC or Snr C/S? I know any of you can easily answer this with, “well what would that have done, reports do nothing” but I would just like to know if you actually did try to do that? I know Scientologists all around the world, and basically none of them really write up outpoints. I can think of around 50 OT’s I know, who don’t write reports.

    It’s a flaw of human nature to not stand up for what’s right, regardless of any out tech. People lack conviction. That’s why we’re here. And if you show conviction, you can get hammered, but so what. Harden up. That’s what we’re trying to handle.

    I understand you guys are upset. I truly do. I have seen the worse and the best. But I can’t understand this one point: why did you leave, instead of staying at fighting?

    Norman Starsky and co were given control of the tech by LRH. By LRH. And LRH said not to start other groups. We’re trying to build a world on broken straws. Did you think that David Miscaviage was infallible? Did you think he has no case? Then your in fantasy land. And I’m sick of people, particularly Americans, not confronting the isness of situations. And thinking stupid things like that. He does have a case. Mocked up or not, he’s on planet eart. LRH also wrote a letter, in handwriting, signed by LRH, regarding DM. And speaks very highly of him.

    The point is this, and I am not saying DM is an SP, he isn’t. Regardless, David Mayo was busted because a class 4 intern wrote a report on him after some insane out tech he ordered. That Class 4, whoever it was, showed balls. Why didn’t you write this stuff up?

    If all these big beings (or otherwise) who have left, had stayed, and sorted this shit out, on themselve, AND ON OTHERS. Instead of putting all this energy on this upset. Geez, wouldn’t that be nice. You should of stay and got it handled!

    Instead, (not to evaluate) but this subject may be a loss for all you, whenever COFS is brought up, there will be upset; I know you will have stable datums and abilites still, only an idiot would say otherwise. But I feel you’re shooting yourselves in the foot, because you didn’t stay and sort things. And it’s going to stick.

    And putting the tech on the net might be an ok idea. Maybe be a good one. Maybe a great one. But coming from someone who has gotten hundreds of people off drugs, and handled so many young people. It’s not a final solution because it is not contacting, and salvaging. And young people wouldn’t give a fuck. Nearly all of them’s ruin is the 2D. (Relationships). And shit, the poor don’t have the internet anyway. Or 3rd world countries.

    And yes, there is certainly isn’t enough contacting and salvaging going on. And yes, lots of PR bullshit.

    You were in recruitment Geir. You know how hard it is to find good help. You give some young (or old) person the job of the saving the planet, and you think their going to do it without fucking things along the way?

    I think in the end your dealing with people, and people are generally in Scientology because they are seeking help, and this stupid culture of being sheep, is rife in Sceintology, but even more, it’s the problem of world. It’s what we’re trying to handle.

    Jesus, in my opinion why would you stand up and clap every minute at an event? That is stupid!!! Australians, especially from Melbourne rarely stand up. But that is my opinion, and when I’m a Flag, I’ve sat at the front, and the back, and I sit down the whole time unless I want to get up and clap. I don’t care what anyone thinks. But some people love doing that because their in the swing of it all. And some people are just sheep. Regardless I don’t care what anyone thinks. And Geir, if you gave a shit about what DM thought, you were out code of honour mate. And if you were ridging towards him regardless of any non-optimum behaviour on his behalf, then you know YOU allowed that to bother you. Flunk for bullbait.

    It’s a fucking shame.

    • 2009-08-24 at 16:39

      All of the questions you ask are answered in my blog posts. Read them all.

      I do not have any bitterness or upset with the church, DM or management. I really don’t. There is no ridge, there is no charge. I see abuses. I seek to handle them. To reiterate: I believe it is futile to report on the very top when I see him as obviously SP. Others have indeed tried and have subsequently been declared SP and thrown out. For me it was a matter of personal integrity – when the church uses confessional material to discredit defectors, it’s check mate, mate (aussie twist). I made the decision that was right for me. I hope you look and confront for yourself – without any fixed ideas, charge, ridge or the upset. There is no need for bitterness. There is need for action.

    • Jim Logan
      2009-09-01 at 00:35

      MS,
      Over on Marty Rathbun’s blog is a post on the Science II article by RJ. In that you will read an account of what happens when a KR is written. I lived and worked at the Int Base. I have witnessed this personally. Yes, one should write KRs to the proper terminals. If you don’t know the policy on ethics/justice in Scn then you are a ‘clay pigeon’ and as such can’t very well complain about being shot at.

      There comes a time, when the theory of Scn ethics, justice and policy and it’s purpose becomes senior to moral issues. The code of Offenses and Penalties, which you cite, is a moral code and was never intended by LRH, for those parts he actually put in it, to usurp one’s ability to reason with any of these topics or that code. When ‘policy’ is used to stop by an SP, then if one can’t evaluate policy against reason, he is unable to handle the situation.

      In the case we face as Scientologists today, that of one of the very few truly suppressive persons there are having gained administrative control of the Church of Scientology, what are you going to do about it? Write your KR by all means, but when you see no effect or worse, you are persecuted as the above article describes, what are you going to do? You’ll have to get up to knowing the intent of policy. The purpose, and confront how SPs can use policy to stop. How they can reverse the process and use Scientology to trap. You’ll have to face your own test of your certainty as a being. You won’t be free until you do. I urge you to read HCO PL 11 April 70 and learn to really think with policy. Put on the ‘boots in the sky’ and you’ll gain a new view of this whole adventure.

  22. MS
    2009-08-24 at 16:45

    I understand what your saying, really. And I’m not into this roteness that your an SP. I know you have done good things. But do you think someone like the Snr CS Int could do something about possible out ethics? Or do you think with finality, that he would not able to? And that there is nobody that would be able to from the top?

    • 2009-08-24 at 17:06

      There is enough evidence that there is really nobody that can correct DM. He has busted all opposition. Most senior execs are held in confinement, some are declared SPs while still “sort of on post”, some have even been declared several times (without any A-E in between). I uncovered a lot in my 2 years research. I have even interviewed ex int base staff with a list of 50 questions to verify. I have met Ray Mithoff, I think he is a great guy. But, I also believe nobody can stand up against DM as the church is currently run. Checks and balances have been discarded, unfortunately.

      • MS
        2009-08-24 at 17:30

        Where is the evidence on this that you have found? Like actual specific evidence? Not hearsay. I’m not talking about PR stats, and bad regging, nor ideal org, GOT, or any other of the latest marketing plans. I personally believe a lot of that is a cultural american thing. I’m also very aware of the outpoints you have raised in regards to the above, and I have seen these outpoints, and written them up, and it has gotten better than it was. I have told many a reg to fuck off, as have most aussies! I’m talking about where is the hard evidence that DM hit people, or had them locked up etc.? From someone credible? Marty Rathburn is not credible. Mike Rinder would be more credible, but I haven’t actually seen him say this anywhere. Having said that, Scientology has had the worse PR it has ever had in the last few years, and that was Mike Rinders hat.

        And yes Tommy Lee, saying that Marty Rathburn was a wholetrack prison warden on the SP Times interview was completely not Ok. His PR has not been good.

        On a seperate note, but still pertinent, Marty Rathburn, who was a fair sized guy, said DM beat him up, (who is a small guy) it’s very hard to beleive that Marty is correct, just from a logical veiwpoint in regards to their sizes. And that from all accounts Marty was a strong guy. This is ridicilous.

        • 2009-08-24 at 18:03

          Marty Rathbun didn’t claime DM beat him up. He said DM punched him twice. Watch the video again.

          I have talked directly to several people who have observed beatings, confinement and other human rights violations. Several of these have never published anything on the net and have never been openly critical. A person dedicated to freedom and the tech that delivers freedom may think he owes it to himself to really find out whether these allegations are true. I did my research. I encourage others to do the same – with a neutral viewpoint.

          Discussion is now closed (as per my About page).

  23. MS
    2009-08-24 at 17:01

    And so you know, I don’t have fixed ideas or charge, upset or a ridge on this.

    I want to know if you are you going to practice Scientology as in auditing now outside? Or with Freezone or something like that? If so, I don’t know how you can justafy that because of what LRH says about it.

    If you’re going to leave, leave. But don’t be part of a squirrel group.

    • 2009-08-24 at 17:08

      I will continue to practice standard tech and seek people who wants the same.

    • 2009-08-28 at 17:51

      The church has become a squirrel group, thanks to Miscavige.

  24. Tom
    2009-08-24 at 17:12

    Hi,

    I just wanted to thank you for widely publishing your Doubt Formula. I was a Cl V org staff member for 15 years in the Eastern United States. I too had a ‘moment’ with DM where I recognized that his intentions were not “benevolent”. I then finished my contract and left the official “CoS”. Since, I have pursued my bridge outside the auspices of “RTC”. When I left the CoS I had attested to Clear. I have since finished OT IV, and all 3 L rundowns. I hope to commence my NOTs in the not too distant future.
    There are a number of well-intentioned people delivering services. But as has become “real” to me, we will need BIG organizations delivering FOR REAL if we are going to pull things off in a positive way on this planet. The Anonymous movement is an example of that. The vast majority of the ones I have spoken too are wide open to “tech”. Human-rights abusing orgnaizations, not so much.

    So, I am open to ideas. I support my local anons, and try to keep them out of trouble when they get ideas that are not so good. I encourage learning, spiritual literacy and training whenever I can. I think we can make a difference. You already have.

    Best,

    Tom

  25. MS
    2009-08-24 at 17:18

    Thank you for responding. But you didn’t answer about what LRH says about being part of other groups? Your going going against LRH by doing so. I would like to know your thoughts on this?

    But where do you get the auditing? Arn’t you worried that you could get out tech?

    • 2009-08-24 at 17:58

      As stated on my About-page, this is not a discussion page, so I will answer this and one more of your comments and then close further action on this thread.

      LRH says in DMSMH: “Dianetics is not in any way covered by legislation anywhere for no law can prevent one man sitting down and telling another man his troubles, and if anyone wants a monopoly on dianetics, be assured that he wants it for reasons which have to do not with dianetics but with profit.”

      Your freedom is your responsibility. You need to always gauge the results you get and the tech that is applied to you regardless of whether it is received inside the church or outside. There is piles of evidence of out tech in the church today. There is piles of out tech on the outside. I will judge any tech honestly on the basis of the results that are made. Worrying will not get me free, so I tend to not get into that.

      I believe the church is squirreling tech. I am seeking more standard delivery.

  26. 2009-08-24 at 20:53

    Geir wrote: “When Tommy Davis seriously botched his rebuttal of the SP Times articles, I knew it was over for me as a member.”

    http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/church-response.shtml

    Perhaps Tommy Davis’ rebuttal was a plea for help.

  27. 2009-08-25 at 03:37

    Comment: Many people have noted DM’s “icy stare” and wondered what it was. It’s a social tone level of Hatred, the tone level of Hate.

  28. mek
    2009-08-27 at 11:27

    I think its great that these issues of Squirreling the tech are being raised, but does un-squirreled tech really work either? does any clear or OT really have the powers LRH attributed to them?

    • surprised
      2009-10-06 at 20:28

      Well, for one thing, I don’t know what supper natural powers you think LRH promised, I actually have a full library and there is nothing that says “You will be able to levitate, or you will be able to do telekinesis” as some very uninformed people claim. What he does say is that you will be gradually more perceptive, more able and yes you will be able to exteriorize at will and recall past lives. You will be more at cause over time (Note this is not time travel or time bending) it just more able to efficiently use time. He talks about being able to communicate through theta. Others call this telepathy, but it is not telepathy, it is simply a much higher level of perception, of which anyone is really capable potentially. I’m not an OT as yet, but I have experienced many of this, I’ve increased my perceptions, I’ve felt people thinking about me and even have been able to anticipate what someone will say. I often say something and have my husband or friend say. Wow! That is what I was thinking of just now. I have experienced exteriorization, though not yet at will. This is the kind of thing he says OTs will achieve, and I’m living proof of this. I don’t know any OTs who claim they can “levitate” or who can “mind read” or who say they can do “telekinesis” I know plenty of misinformed people who say that LRH promised that and I just can’t find such promises anywhere.

  29. Ronsfriend
    2009-08-27 at 17:39

    Hi Mek,

    There is only one way to find that out, just get audited and trained.

    I am Scientologist (but not a churchy) and I am not looking for supernatural power but just for a higher emotional level, a higher consciousness and for more abilities to handle life. I have improved very much on those abilities and I made great wins. If I would tell you the positive changes that I have made through scientology, you would not believe me and you would straight away start to depreciate my wins. Those people who knows me for a long time they have observed that this is true and have acknowledge it.

    I don`t know why all critics believe we want to achieve supernatural power and that we should proof that to you like in the circus.

  30. Ackerland
    2009-08-28 at 17:04

    >> I don`t know why all critics believe we want to achieve
    >> supernatural power and that we should proof that to you like
    >> in the circus.

    The reason is very simple. Hubbard makes claims about the workability of his “tech”, he claims Dianetics is an exact science, he claims all psychosomatic illnesses can be cured and the insane (with intact brain) can be cured in each and every case. You can read this in DMSMH, if you want to, I can give you the chapter numbers and exact quotes of Hubbard.

    Furthermore, Hubbard makes certain predictions: For instance “total recall” for the state of clear, “cause over MEST” and “exteriorisation at will” for OTs. Now if Hubbard claims Dianetics to be good science on the same level as any other engineering science, expect the content of Dianetics to be held to the same standard as each and every other engineering science.
    That includes checking whether Hubbard’s predictions prove to be valid. If not, the whole Hubbardian model of the human mind is brought into question. It was Hubbard who makes these claims and predictions, now that he is dead, it is up to those who believe in his claims to prove these predictions are true. But conveniently, there’s a loophole in Scientology that forbids anyone to prove his abilities to anyone. The exact moment this policy is being applied, DMSMH stops being a science and starts being dogma.

    You may ask yourself: If you have your wins, why is this important, after all, the tech works, right?

    The processing may have influenced yourself to the better. But how do you know you are not hurting other people who are predisposed in a different way? Naturally, you do not hear about these people, as they usually disappear very quietly from Scientology orgs and you only get to hear the success stories. I know of a family woman, who was high in the OT levels and committed suicide by jumping off a building, after an auditing session has gone terribly awry. This is not the only case where this happened. In fact, and it is confirmed by personal experience in another case, I am convinced the inhibition threshold to committing suicide is considerably lowered in hard core believers of Scientology, because you expect to return in a new body anyways and so have left behind all worldly problems of your current existence.

    This is the reason, why a scientific view on the Hubbardian techniques is important, not a dogmatic one. An “it worked on me and on all of my friends” is not good enough for science.

  31. Soderqvist
    2009-08-29 at 07:07

    ” I know of a family woman, who was high in the OT levels and committed suicide by jumping off a building, after an auditing session has gone terribly awry.”

    Soderqist1: it is powerful stuff!
    If this happens when an auditing session has gone terribly awry, the opposite must be the outcome when done correct!

  32. Ronsfriend
    2009-08-29 at 09:08

    Hallo Ackerland,

    You have absolutely the right to have you own opinion and I respect very much your point of view, it is fine for me. Furthermore I like you because your intention is to help others.

    On the other side I do have also the right on my own opinion and what I know is what I know. I will never allow anybody in the world to attack my certainty and my own point of view. My opinion – on this matter – is based on many years of firsthand experience and not by hearsay. With my first post I have already expressed my opinion and I am not going to discuss it over and over.

    One last hint: not everything in the world is black and white.

    Wish you all the best

  33. Ackerland
    2009-08-29 at 20:11

    >> Furthermore I like you because your intention
    >> is to help others

    Thank you! In the end, I believe we both have the goal of abolishing the suppressive Scientology organisation.

    >> You have absolutely the right to have you own opinion and I
    >> respect very much your point of view, it is fine for me.

    This was neither an attack on you nor anyone else. You yourself said you did not know about why critics demanded proof:

    >> I don`t know why all critics believe we want to achieve
    >> supernatural power and that we should proof that to you like
    >> in the circus.

    And I gave you the reason for why us critics want just that proof.

  34. Nom de Plume
    2009-08-31 at 16:19

    I really feel for MS, who is blindly clinging to hope.

    Anyone who has done a handful of courses has read and word-cleared KSW #1 at the beginning of each checksheet. How could possibly stay there when they saw the definition of 2D changed to “creativity”??? Hello?

    “If you’re going to leave, leave. But don’t be part of a squirrel group.”
    -MS

    I would ask MS right now, with the LRH tech now so polluted at the COS, “Who is the squirrel group?”

    For me, the kiss of death was on the “new” Metering Course, where some extremely ignorant verbal data from DM was issued in the form of a (I believe blue-on-white?) memo which declared a “read” and an “instant read” to be the same thing. And we were expected to follow it.

    Hah! And then, we would be ushered into the film room each course period, where we sat through the meter film where all (20 or so?) needle REACTIONS would be carefully demo’d to us. 😀

    Please, DM…make up our minds for us. The confusion is killing me. Ha ha…NOT! Bye-bye, au revoir, kiss my @ss, you demented Markabian tool!

    (P.S.: An “instant read” is clearly defined by LRH (Tech Dictionary) as “That REACTION of the needle which occurs…” See the Tech Dictionary for “Read” also. They are NOT the same. [Consider the dates of each definition, and what LRH was pioneering at the time.])

  35. Jack
    2009-09-01 at 23:19

    Jack :
    Nice try at introverting an OT VIII

    I refer to the comment by NoWay

  36. imu
    2009-10-19 at 12:53

    only love can handle evil. DM has to rise up to a LOVING point to want to correct himself. i find it not impossible but specially hard in his case to put whatever ethics in first because i think ethics has to come from the inside and then the outter actions may have results. before his inner agreement, no one will force him to anything. he’s the king of force. reason may be powerful but love is the greatest power of all. so great that can make someone abdicate of his own power as a sign of love for all. i think all this will make him even angrier as i don’t see him capable of recognizing affection and an openness to receive it. but i really don’t know, i’m truly no one. i just love the more and the best i can and i’m always sailing on the love boat 🙂

  37. Fernando
    2010-10-08 at 07:13

    hello, δm from spain,my english its very bad,sorry.I like scientology tech,but no like the scientology administration,and the thinkinnes LRH about society,politic and the structure of org.I´m living in Flag since 1987 to 1991,student auditor and i preclear.LRH by telepaty talk me “I´m equivocado,el pensamiento politico y acerca de la sociedad cambia con su evolución,tambien la tecnica puede cambiar y mejorar,algo en el camino sucedio y la organoizacion fue infiltrada y se ha transformado en una maquina de hacer dinero,que ademas puede que este controlada por otros intereses,haz algo si puedes para parar esto,estoy diciendotelo a ti entre muchos otros,el puente asi no va a liberar al planeta.

  38. 2012-07-12 at 18:34

    Thanks Geir, Very interesting. Ant

  39. Peter
    2013-06-27 at 03:21

    In 1982, I saw the destruction, in a few short weeks, of the decades long Mission system, a system built expressly by the independent Mission holders who had been granted a franchise to do so. LRH was still available and in power as the SO swept in and literally stole all the funds in all the accounts. (The Mission holders had been ordered to put Herbie Parkhouse as signatory on their accounts. I had known HP and there was no way I would ever have him in such a position.) So on a given day, all accounts were swept up and the Mission holders – some of them so having served admirably for 20 years or more – were thrown out and their missions taken over. Where was LRH? Why did he not speak out? Why did he countenance a totally illegal action with the destruction of so many lives and livelihoods? Where was the policy? Where was the sanity? Where were the “ethics”? I get more than a little sickened by the constant praising of LRH while ignoring so many of his rather obvious outpoints.

  1. 2010-09-19 at 20:46
  2. 2012-03-04 at 20:39
  3. 2012-07-12 at 16:45
  4. 2016-01-17 at 11:29

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